[Tian Ya Ke (Re-)Readalong] Chapter 1 - Tian Chuang

[rekishi]

Hello and welcome to our Tian Ya Ke reread!

Until the end of August we will be rereading the first volume and we'll see how this goes. For all your translation needs please see here. Also huldraism has kindly provided me with the link for a different translation by xuxunette (up to chapter 30). I have no clue what it's like and I got the link like 20 minutes ago. I'll try to check it out but for now (and next week at least) I'll be using the sparklingwater translation version! (Since I pre-wrote the post for next week in case the second vaccine shot wipes me out.)

I plan to include a quick summary of the chapter(s) we're reading, a few key quotes, and some thoughts. I don't want to do an ultra-close reading to leave enough room for y'all to add your thoughts as well. Feel free to pick other quotes from the chapters as well and discuss them in your comments! You're also more than welcome to add any insights you might have from the Chinese version of the text (my Chinese is very rudimentary and while I may add a note or two, I very much operate on "this sounds strange, let's look what this is in the original" and then try to beat my dictionary into submission). You are also more than welcome to step on my toes when I blunder my way through Chinese culture in a too bulldozer-like manner; while I make efforts to research things, in the end this is not a language I speak fluently nor my native culture so there will be such moments. Point them out and I will gladly correct my stance and hopefully learn from my mistakes.

These posts will inevitably have spoilers for both the novel and the drama (and probably Qi Ye). The pace is slow enough that you should be able to read ahead with no problem as well!

Farewell to the Imperial Court - Chapter 1 - Tian Chuang

We open at Emperor Helian Yi's Imperial Court, where we witness the torture and mutilation of a man. Zhou Zishu, the head of the Emperor's intelligence and assassination service Tian Chuang, exits the chamber and dismisses the guards. We get a brief introduction to the "Nails of Seven Apertures for Three Autumns" only to learn that Zhou Zishu has inserted six nails into his own body already. He asks Emperor Helian Yi to release him from his service.

[Quick note: In the translation, we get presented with the name "He Lianyi" for the Emperor. His name is actually Helian Yi, though (as Dora nicely explained to me here).]

• A short time passed by until a middle-aged man was dragged out by two people, looking half dead. His arms were bare, head lolled to one side, hair sweat-soaked, lips bitten raw, blood foaming at the corner of his mouth, no visible injuries save for the seven major acupuncture points on his stomach and chest, which were stabbed into by deep crimson nails. It looked like a horrifying map.


• The man in robes seemed to be in his late twenties, carrying himself with a scholarly grace, but there were traces of sickness on his complexion. His face was sharp, eyes bright, thick eyelashes seemingly hiding half of his face when he looked down, which was a common habit. The rare times the man looked up, a chilling cold in his eyes could be seen. The addition of an elegance slope of nose and a contemptuous curl of lips was a treacherous touch to his handsome look.
  
  The man looked at the younger after noticing the honorifics, smiling gently, “You must be new?”
  
  The young man nodded. “Yes, my lord [zhuangzhu, 庄主].”
  
  He was then patted twice on the shoulder, “Then you must remember never to call me that from now on, the title is no longer mine. Simply call me Sir Zhou [daren, 大人] next time.”


• “There’re still a lot you don’t understand. If you enter ‘Tian Chuang’ there’s no way out, escape will only result in either death or being completely disabled.”
  
  By Year 4 under the Rong Jia reign of Da Qing, just by hearing the name ‘Tian Chuang’ could make the whole court quiver in fear.


• The “Nails of Seven Apertures for Three Autumns” punishment meant that the person would be stabbed by poisonous nails into the seven most important acupuncture points on their upper body by internal force, blocking their Eight Meridians, crippling their martial art skills and their ability to speak or move; after three years, the poison would fully spread into their viscera and they would kick the bucket.


• He looked relatively well-built, but once the robes were removed, a shriveled body came into view, like something had drained life completely out of it. On his haggard frame were six Nails already being put in for apparently a long time ago, having almost become one with the flesh.


• Head Butler Duan Pengju was promoted by Zhou Zishu himself after the latter took over Tian Chuang and operated under his orders only; he was both capable and unabashedly ambitious.
  
  Sometimes, Zhou Zishu saw the younger version of himself in this man.


• Zhou Zishu opened his slender palm, on which a single nail rested. “Your Majesty, I have put in six of them myself. The seventh one will render me unable to take care of royal matters; I hereby come to say farewell, and only ask that Your Majesty lets Pengju carry out my request.”
  
  He Lianyi was dumbfounded, words unable to come out. After a long while, he sat back dejectedly, craning up to stare at the beams on the study’s ceiling, muttering, “Yun Xing was faraway at the northwest, Beiyuan… Beiyuan is here no more, now even you are leaving me?”


• Duan Pengju hesitated for a while, then bit his lips, raising the vaguely crimson object and nailing it into his lord’s body. After years of witnessing, he knew this process would bring great pain, to the point that even the strongest man would cower and scream; but Zhou Zishu only trembled a little, his body still stiff straight. There was no screaming, only occasional inaudible groans.

A few linguistics things first:

(Please note that I write the pinyin without tones for now (maybe I'll change that in the future), but if you need some resources, the best mobile app dictionary for Chinese is imo Pleco (even the free version is amazing), and two online resources I found very useful in the past are Yabla and Yello Bridge. A very good text translator is DeepL.

We get the nice zhuangzhu vs daren here that is also included in the drama. The essence here is that ZZS is the former Lord of Siji Manor and very much sees himself as such. He doesn't insist like this later on when he is wandering jianghu, but he is doing very much so now.

We see several translations by several translators for "Nails of Seven Apertures for Three Autumns", the string in Chinese is 七窍三秋钉, whereas qiqiao (七窍) is a standing expression that indeed does mean 'seven apertures [of the human head]' meaning 2 ears, 2 eyes, 2 nostrils, 1 mouth. So I will stick with that translation. It makes sense because the Nails are associated with loss of the senses if inserted all at once.

Fun fact: 'Tiang Chuang' is an acupuncture point on the human neck associated with the small intestine in TCM. One wonders whether there is a relation to this torture method.

Less linguistic, more martial arts:
Eight Extraordinary Meridians:

The eight extraordinary meridians are of pivotal importance in the study of Qigong, Taijiquan and Chinese alchemy. These eight extra meridians differ from the standard twelve organ meridians in that they are considered to be storage vessels or reservoirs of energy and are not associated directly with the Zang Fu, i.e. internal organs. These channels were studied in the"Spiritual Axis"chapters 17, 21 and 62, the"Classic of Difficulties"chapters 27, 28 and 29 and the"Study of the 8 Extraordinary vessels"(Qi Jing Ba Mai Kao), written in 1578. The eight extraordinary vessels are (奇經八脈; qí jīng bā mài):

Conception Vessel (Ren Mai) – 任脈; rèn mài
Governing Vessel (Du Mai) – 督脈; dū mài
Penetrating Vessel (Chong Mai) – 衝脈; chōng mài
Girdle Vessel (Dai Mai) – 帶脈; dài mài
Yin linking vessel (Yin Wei Mai) – 陰維脈; yīn wéi mài
Yang linking vessel (Yang Wei Mai) – 陽維脈; yáng wéi mài
Yin Heel Vessel (Yin Qiao Mai) – 陰蹻脈; yīn qiāo mài
Yang Heel Vessel (Yang Qiao Mai) – 陽蹻脈; yáng qiāo mài

This is actually the only time we meet Helian Yi or anyone else from Tian Chuang or the current Imperial Court. Considering how integral all of this was in the prequel (Qi Ye), this is a different pace. This Helian Yi is very different from the man we see in the drama who has this role, and I actually like this man. Despite his many faults he has integrity and seems to actually have an interest in his people. Yun Xing had a pretty integral role in the prequel and we'll actually meat Beiyuan later on (Helian Yi is using 没啦 here, which has the same function as 没了and means both "not here" as well as "dead", so pick your connotation wisely).

[For me it raises the question: What will Helian Yi do if he ever learns of both of them still being around but I think that's a discussion for after the novel.]

Hence, ZZS is actually working for a relatively decent ruler, but clearly has reasons to subject himself to the Nails in order to seek a way out, even if it is only for three years. We don't get a discussion with Lao Bi here and no motivation for him to ask for the Nails, only the hint that this was voluntary rather than punishment.

ZZS is clearly not interested in/doesn't see himself as deserving of being the Lord of Siji Manor anymore and admonishes the guard accordingly. In that context though I also find his assessment of Duan Pengju relevant, he was both capable and unabashedly ambitious. Sometimes, Zhou Zishu saw the younger version of himself in this man., because it indicates how much must have happened in the past few years. There's a weariness in these very simple words, and a ruefulness that he is not that man anymore. I thought for a while of describing it as weltschmerz, but that doesn't seem all that fitting, since ZZS has (valid?) reason to think like this.

We don't actually get an answer for i) why ZZS came up with the Nails as the only way to exit Tiang Chuang at all (rather than killing them outright) and ii) why he chose the same option for himself/chose to exit Tian Chuang at all. The former may be a weird sort of...mercy? compassion? for anyone who wants to leave? For the option to be there?

For the latter, knowing the backstory, I do believe Helian Yi would have let ZZS go even without the Nails (though of course they are a very convincing argument), but I talked before on my own DW about atonement and penance and even after reading Qi Ye, I'm still not entirely clear on whether there might have been a trigger (Liang Jiuxiao's death? the fact that Siji Manor disciples were dwindling? the same reason why Lao Bi was obviously not the first one to ask for the Nails?) or a slow erosion of his soul considering all the things he did for Helian Yi. Or both.

Mostly this chapter serves as an info dump to get us introduced to 1) Tian Chuang, 2) how much time has passed since the prequel (4 years), and 3) the Nails. My Chinese is unfortunately not good enough to determine whether the paragraph about the Nails is translated correctly, so please anyone who feels up to this chime in!

Future posts will might be shorter per chapter, promise, I just wanted to throw some things out there and see what sticks with y'all!

Next week, we'll meet more characters that will stay with us a bit longer than Helian Yi and Duan Pengju. Our next post is on June 29 with chapters 2+3.

Comments

[acricketsong]

Yes! Hello! I am so here for this.

Regarding potential breaking point for ZZS:

Although I think Helian Yi is a good emperor for the people, considering the family he comes from, the court decidedly was not. To uproot what seems to be such a corrupt system, bloodless negotiations sometimes aren’t enough. ZZS asking for the Nails and then the following excerpt really hint that the types of jobs that ZZS and Tian Chuang had to do to secure the throne were truly unconscionable to some of them: But, even then, there were still some who voluntarily wanted to be put in a near-coma just to leave Tian Chuang. Those three years, for them, were the greatest favor.

It might not even be that there was a single trigger. Just the nature of court and power dynamics and corruption. Over time, even the most driven will be worn down. (Which, omg, HLY.)

Regarding Duan Pengju

ZZS calls DPJ dà-guǎnjiā (head butler/management role of household or manor), and DPJ calls ZZS zhuāng zhǔ, both of which seem to hint that Siji was the primary cover for Tian Chuang, outside of whatever BS job HLY gave ZZS. I just thought that was interesting! The jianghu normally keeps itself separate from court politics, so HLY taking on ZZS might have the added benefit of providing an additional cover for Tian Chuang.

Regarding Helian Yi

After a moment of contemplation, Helian Yi sighed and said, “I am really alone, aren’t I.” Helian Yi rigidly stared at the blood-soaked man, and in that moment no one knew what this fair emperor was thinking—the cautiousness, the crafted calculations, the old flames of war, the bitter struggles, all those years… He eventually claimed the throne, but everyone had all passed away, leaving him alone.

It makes me wonder sometimes exactly at what what point HLY realized he would be alone, you know? When he embarked on this journey, did he realize it then? Or was it when he lost JBY? Or was it now, when his last remaining friend (or whatever) is literally asking him for what amounts to ritual suicide?

And then he just... lets ZZS go. Ugh. I tear up just thinking about this.

And then the ending to the chapter

The strength in his body was slowly diminishing, the numbness creeping in. His last words were, “Huáng Shang must take care.”

Without waiting for an answer from Helian Yi, he walked out of the study, all the weight of the years now light as a single feather. His silhouette seemed to flash for a moment, then he vanished without a trace.

ZZS just ups and leaves without being dismissed. I know they’re in private with just the three of them (HLY, ZZS, and DPJ), but it still feels like it’s something that ZZS feels like he can just walk away without so much as a dismissal. I was under the impression that court manners were stricter than that!

And WHAT A CONTRAST to how Word of Honor portrayed their dynamic! Somehow, I feel so much more for HLY in the novel than in the show, even though Jin-wang portrays more emotion. HLY’s emotional pain is private/introspective and likely something he absolutely cannot afford to have others witness, but that’s difficult to portray in a short scene like the one we got in Word of Honor.

God, my heart hurt for HLY here. I hate the character-has-to-be-alone-to-get-what-he-wants trope. It makes sense because of his position, but it’s no less irritatingly painful to read.

(I still don’t quite accept that Jin-wang is HLY, but whatever, just a comparison of emotions of the analogous scenes between the novel and the drama.)

[rekishi]

Hello! :D And thank you for your nicely structured thoughts!

Tian Chuang is very much an intelligence agency. And hence is definitely also killing people. I think we learn more about what Tian Chuang actually does in Qi Ye, but we still get some insights also later in TYK, I think. So yes, it might simply be attrition that has driven him towards making the decision for the Nails. And what a protracted procedure it is. Imagine being that committed to something that you don't take the 'relatively' quick way out but drag it out an additional 1.5 years.

Siji Manor was very much a 'normal' sect until ZZS up and took them to the court (to my reading). But how they fell in in the first place and how and why ZZS then made the decision to take such drastic steps and basically, essentially, dissolve it (because it's subsumed into Tian Chuang) is a pretty drastic steps. ZZS must have been convinced he was doing the right thing. I wonder if he's regretting it.

At the end of the chapter, ZZS is very much taking his agency back and his identity as a man of jianghu, who is not affiliated with the court. That's what that is. For that moment he is a man doomed to die, a man who wants to die even - up to a certain point at least.

HELIAN YI. Omg.

Ok, I don't think Helian Yi is Jin-wang. Jin-wang takes the position that would be Helian Yi's, but he absolute isn't the same man. Helian Yi is both a better man and a better ruler than Jin-wang will ever be. He lets ZZS go because he has to...I don't know what would make him do the opposite.

With that out of the way, I honestly wonder what Helian Yi will do/think/say when he learns on day that both JBY and ZZS are alive. It's not even unlikely that he will one day learn by accident, because even though Tian Chuang loses sight of ZZS, ZZS and WX and JBY running around together is sort of obvious and might draw some attention, especially from such a tight ship organization as Tian Chuang. I don't think HLY would want...retribution or anything but it must be such a low blow to him emotionally. I have thoughts about him, I wish I had a better handle on that to pour it into a one-scene fic so I could have it out of my head.

[trobadora]

I just reread this chapter both in the sparklingwater translation and in the Xuxunette version. The Xuxunette version overall seems much more attentive to detail, and much smoother, but it's got a few of its own infelicities, and it translates 庄主 as "(my) liege", which is pretty damn feudal for a jianghu sect leader's title ...

(FWIW, the online Chinese dictionary I use is MDBG. I have Pleco on my phone too, of course. *g*)

The essence here is that ZZS is the former Lord of Siji Manor and very much sees himself as such. He doesn't insist like this later on when he is wandering jianghu, but he is doing very much so now.

Very interestingly to me, Duan Pengju also calls him zhuangzhu! (Something the drama version never would. But the entire tension between ZZS and DPJ in the drama is absent here; the dynamics and circumstances are very different.)

The novel version of Lao-Bi being given the nails is entirely second-hand, outsider POV, and it's very effective that way.

Hence, ZZS is actually working for a relatively decent ruler, but clearly has reasons to subject himself to the Nails in order to seek a way out, even if it is only for three years.

Yeah, and it's remarkable that people seeking out the Nails doesn't seem to be a shockingly rare occurrence. That is even more striking with them working for someone comparatively decent, and even without the context of Qi Ye gives you a sense of how dark Tianchuang's work must be, to produce that.

What really struck me on rereading is how physically weak Zhou Zishu is depicted here. He passes out for hours after removing the scars covering the nails! I had totally forgotten about that.

Speaking of, since we were discussing it in the context of the drama:
sparklingwater: "the nails looked new again"
Xuxunette: "the Nails appeared as if someone had freshly pummeled them in"

So it does seem like, at least in the novel, the point of uncovering the nails was to make them appear new.

even after reading Qi Ye, I'm still not entirely clear on whether there might have been a trigger (Liang Jiuxiao's death? the fact that Siji Manor disciples were dwindling? the same reason why Lao Bi was obviously not the first one to ask for the Nails?) or a slow erosion of his soul considering all the things he did for Helian Yi. Or both.

My original impression was slow erosion; it’ll be interesting to see what things look like on reread!

[acricketsong]

Oh, I know Siji was a normal sect, but I wonder whether the selling points for HLY to just take up with some random person from the jianghu were that ZZS came with built-in spy abilities (his disguises) and a built-in cover.

As for how HLY would react... I don’t think he would be angry enough to seek revenge, but I think dude would be hurt as fuck but also accepting that that was probably inevitable.

As for the walking away scene, I don’t think I was even thinking about his agency. I suppose I was just trying to work out what their personal relationship with one another is because we usually just see their professional or in-front-of-other-people relationship, so I was curious whether that scene could be taken as proof that they more or less understand each other, and ZZS is simply just in that position to be able to take liberties.

I think WoH changing ZZS into HLY/JW’s cousin was maybe an attempt to explain why and how Siji and ZZS would’ve ended up in this position, plus make the relationship between ZZS and HLY/JW for explicit than it was in the novel. JBY definitely hinted a lot at their closeness in QY, I feel like. (JBY comments at least that he and ZZS were particularly close, and JBY + HLY were definitely close, and ZZS + JBY were always supposedly at HLY’s side.)

Re: ZZS taking the Nails. He totally tried to make it less painful for himself, though! And the second chapter (so this is totally reading ahead and stuff but...) shows that he really wanted to see the world! I kind of thought that at the end there, he was of a mindset where he was like, OK, I did my job. I am feeling all kinds of fucked up about this, but also I deserve a vacation. He then just planned himself a vacation. LOL. One last hurrah!

He didn’t feel bad enough to immediately off himself without first seeing the sights and or enjoying himself, but he also didn’t feel mentally healthy enough not to have a death wish. Very interesting mentality. I would be curious to see how others saw this, though.

[trobadora]

I really don't think Jin-wang is Helian Yi at all, or even meant to be; he's just the character who occupies the same narrative space as ZZS's (former) boss.

[huldraism]

i really agree with your thoughts on helian yi vs jin-wang in word of honor - jin-wang was not portrayed as... sympathetically? as i feel helian yi is here.

[trobadora]

At the end of the chapter, ZZS is very much taking his agency back and his identity as a man of jianghu, who is not affiliated with the court.

Oh yes, I love how you put that!

[huldraism]

i missed this original discussion for the word of honor re-watch, but i always had the impression that he re-opened the nails (in the show as well) to make it appear as if he had done them all at once, so that jin-wang/helian yi would consider him less of a threat & stop looking for him relatively quickly. i also really noticed how much it was highlighted how physically terribly zhou zishu was doing - i wish we'd seen a bit more of that in the show!

[acricketsong]

And if you write HLY ’fic, please know you got an audience for it!

[trobadora]

I kind of thought that at the end there, he was of a mindset where he was like, OK, I did my job. I am feeling all kinds of fucked up about this, but also I deserve a vacation. He then just planned himself a vacation. LOL. One last hurrah!

Ha! Yeah, that's totally the vibe. :D

[huldraism]

i had a lot of the same passages as you highlighted, though the xuxunette version, which is pretty funny!

Upon hearing what the young guard had called him, the man couldn’t resist shooting him a glance.
“New here?” he asked, with a small laugh.

i found this passage so interesting - this is the first time we meet zhou zishu, and he's laughing! i kept thinking of his incredibly solemn introduction in word of honor. i almost feel like, in word of honor we are meeting a broken man who has not accepted his own death but sees the nails as the only way out, whereas here, we are meeting a man who has accepted his death and who is now lighter and more joyous for it. or perhaps zzs has always acted like this around recruits and tian chuang generally? who knows.

> Chamberlain Duan’s full name was Duan Pengju. Promoted to power by Zhou Zishu himself after he took control of Skylight; he obeyed no other than him. Duan Pengju was a skilled man, with ambitions, though he never divulged the latter. Whenever Zhou Zishu looked at him, he saw a spitting image of his own self when he was a few years younger.

both head butler and chamberlain as titles are quite something. chamberlain in particular took me by surprise! i enjoy zhou zishu's insight into duan pengju's character here - he has ambitions, but he never talks about them, keeping them close to his own heart. it makes me wonder what zhou zishu's ambitions were, and why he's given up on them.

i thought we were doing 3 chapters today - i'm a fool, but that gave me the chance to dip my toes into the xuxunette translation. it's certainly a lot more detailed, i keep cross-referencing the notes moreso than i usually do when reading cnovels! i am enjoying it a lot, i particularly think a lot of the humour in chapter 3 is carried over really well (or at least, it reads as very funny to me, so that's impressive in its own right).

[trobadora]

It was very interesting to hear about people's reactions regarding uncovering the nails! Here is the thread, if you haven't seen.

And agreed about Zhou Zishu's physical state! Not that they could easily have made poor Zhang Zhehang look the way he's described here. *g*

[rekishi]

*sigh*

I can't quite grasp him. He's vaguely....floating around?

[huldraism]

hmm, having read the comments those are all good points! i feel like there's more trust (of a kind) between helian yi and zhou zishu here in the book scene. i can certainly see shl!zhou zishu opening them up in part to be like bro don't worry i definitely have them whereas i think, if he had kept them sealed and told helian yi where they were, helian yi would have believed him? but zhou zishu is (as we'll get to in the second chapter) very intent on keeping his secret about the slow insertion of the nails changing their effect (and even being possible!), so i still think it's mainly to cover up that information.

[rekishi]

He totally tried to make it less painful for himself, though!

He tried to preserve his senses (and his martial arts), but he does say it is excruciating to endure those 18 months, so I'm not sure about less painful.

[acricketsong]

Oh, man, you have no idea how much I was conflicted over ZZH being cast for ZZS! ZZH obviously loves sports and being physically in good shape, so I was just kind of unhappy that he would likely have to undergo some physical stuff to make himself appear more frail. But, also, ZZS is just really sick, and hopefully there are limits to what you can ask actors to do for roles, so there was just no way we’d get the super sick ZZS from the novel.

I just had to accept that ill characters like ZZS are impossible to cast for. But it was still regrettable, because ZZS’s frailty was one of the things that struck me about the interaction between WKX + ZZS. WKX is all like please, sleep with me already while ZZS is standing over there looking emaciated and like he’s just about to keel over. Maybe the robes really did hide a lot (but it should show on his face or hands or something as he got sicker), but I like to think WKX was just that confident in his judgement of beauty.

The script-writer could have still added in scenes or more interactions between the characters that might hint at how terrible of a physical state ZZS is supposedly in, though. Rather than just having GX calling ZZS names.

[trobadora]

i almost feel like, in word of honor we are meeting a broken man who has not accepted his own death but sees the nails as the only way out, whereas here, we are meeting a man who has accepted his death and who is now lighter and more joyous for it.

I think to some degree SHL!ZZS has accepted his death, but he sees it as a (deserved) punishment, whereas to TYK!ZZS it's a relief. As you say, that lightness ...

[rekishi]

Yes, fully agree there.

[rekishi]

I like Helian Yi. I was sympathetic before reading Qi Ye but now I actually like him. And he's really...the worst off in the end.

[rekishi]

Thank you for the additional resource, Dora. <3

I'll try to skim the other translation for next week and then see how I proceed from there.

I did indeed not check the form of address DPJ used.

What really struck me on rereading is how physically weak Zhou Zishu is depicted here.

Yes, also that his body is shrivelled under the robes and that they are basically disguising his condition. This is (naturally?) different in the drama, but it's an interesting contrast. Maybe we should have an eye on this (god, do I need a spreadsheet???) how he is described going forward, WKX tries to get enough glances at him.

[acricketsong]

Ah, I think I was maybe reading into this part in Ch. 2 for that? The method was said to drive people crazy with agony; however, Zhou Zishu merrily found out that the rumor was unfounded after all. Not only was he still sane, he also felt like there was no other time in his life that he was this happy and at peace.

Either a bunch of assassin dudes lied about the agony they experienced or witnessed others feeling, or the method he tried modulated the pain he felt. It is also weird that his pain would act up at night only, but maybe there is something there about meridians etc that could explain that.

[rekishi]

Thank you again for the translation link. <3

I will skim it for next week (and might switch then?), it's incredibly interesting!

And you're right, this ZZS is so different! ...more the ZZS we meet in QY really, where he is much more cheerful than we initially meet him in SHL. This ZZS has, after this seen, after he walks away, a much more positive outlook!

[rekishi]

But ZZS has insane pain tolerance, JBY comments on that at the very end.

[acricketsong]

This didn’t totally inspire a SHL/TYK Kinkmeme prompt or anything. *cough*

His high pain tolerance could also hint at training to resist torture, so I guess I just operated under the assumption that other Tian Chuang members went through the same training. I have difficulty buying that someone naturally has that high of a pain tolerance without nerve damage.

[huldraism]

yeah, it's really interesting. aah, he's such an interesting character!

[trobadora]

Yeah, the contrast is fascinating, and we should definitely keep an eye on it!

[huldraism]

having thought about it a bit more - and having read your comment - i think it's part of shl!zzs having different/stronger morals than tyk!zzs. his sins weigh heavy on him - as you say, he sees it as a deserved punishment, whereas tyk!zzs's motivation seems to be more, i just don't want to do this anymore. i am sure we'll get deeper into the differences in their morals the further we get into the book, but it's interesting to see that difference in characterisation so early.

[trobadora]

It's definitely in part stronger morals in SHL, agreed - both ZZS and WKX are overall more moral people in the drama. But also, having done what he did for what he still considers a worthy cause makes a huge difference for TYK!ZZS. Whereas SHL!ZZS - well, it was for Jin-wang. *g*

Yeah, it's so fascinating to compare!

[huldraism]

and helian yi has succeeded and has shown himself to be a good (enough) ruler, unlike jin-wang who is still trying to prove himself. that definitely gives zzs some sense of peace as well, that he wasn't backing the wrong horse.

[rekishi]

Spreadsheet it is, if I remember later today.

[rekishi]

oh my! XD

I suspect ZZS does believe in the effects of the nails and what they cause. I guess it also makes sense from the point of having the meridians crippled, at least from my very rudimentary understanding of these things.

I also think ZZS is just...a beast. lol We know he has exceptional martial arts, that's preserved through the adaptations, and I generally trust WX's outside assessment that at best he had a 30% chance. JBY is somewhat dismissive of that 'because it's Zishu', so that's what I'm going with.

I do think your thoughts have a lot of merit, I just also think ZZS is different. Despite passing out from the scars, which is also a nails effect and....pains him obviously.

[aurumcalendula]

I'm only just now getting around to reading the novel, oops

It's neat how closely what ends up in first episode of the show follows this (albeit with significant changes re: Duan Pengju and Helian Yi's counterpart), even if the tone is very different re: ZZS.

I'm kinda curious how much time is meant to have passed between the end of Qi Ye and this.

[rekishi]

4 years:

Qi Ye ends with HLY ascending to throne (start of Rongjia reign), in the prologue it says it's the 4th years of Rongjia.

[aurumcalendula]

Thank you!